glenngk
De'anic (Non-Jana Clan)
Posts: 63 
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Post by glenngk on Apr 16, 2017 17:47:14 GMT
Race I read one of your Tumblr posts in which you stated that the current names of the Janya were started by the Madrians in 1975. Or this is what I think that you said. I have been examining the "The Coming Age editions and I so far have not seen any references to the Aristasian / Chelouranyan names of the Janya within them. I have seen the words thame and kear within these texts though. So could you refer me to where you get your information. To be honest I have always speculated that the Aristasians only developed the current names at a very late date. I guess I was wrong.
I might as well add another issue to the package. I note that in edition 15 of TCA that the word Geniae is still used for the Janyati. Was the word Janya or Janyati ever used instead of Genia or Geniae within the TCA. If not I do wonder why you chose to use the words Janya or Janyati in The Clear Recital. I did read the section in which you stated that the Geniae may have been a scribal interpretation of Janya. However that seems to me to be unlikely.
Please note, I really do like the words Janya and Janyait much better than the words Genia or Geniae but that preference is based on my own sense of aethetics and my feeling that the word Janya is more descriptive of the divine reality than is the word Genia.
Glenn
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Post by racemochridhe on Apr 29, 2017 8:34:08 GMT
Glenn,
Sorry for the late reply... it seems I am not getting notifications from the forum the way I think I should be. I shall have to look into it.
I do believe that the "current" names were almost certainly in use as early as the mid-70s—a conclusion which greatly surprised me as well. The critical apparatus to the ECE lays out in detail the evidences supporting this, but to summarize them briefly:
1) Terms that appear as part of the same name set as the Aristasian names of the Janyati do appear in even early issues of TCA, as well as in Madrian Literature Circle (MLC) papers. These include "thamë", and "Nimwë". Thamë is identified by Madrian sources as being a "Rhennish" term.
2) While TCA and MLC never use thamë as a name of the Janya (using it only in reference to the abstract concept), they do explicitly identify "themis" (again used as an abstract concept) as a gloss on thamë, eliminating the possibility that themis and thamë were treated as distinct terms.
3) On at least one occasion, TCA explicitly notes that "Phoebe" has been used in place of an original Rhennish term, which it says is not "revealed here". The context of the poem in which this substitution occurs strongly suggests that its scansion is predicated on "Candrë" as the Rhennish term being substituted.
These three facts led me to conclude that the name set familiar from Aristasian writing already existed at the time of TCA's publication, but that some manner of esoteric consideration prompted the concealment of the original Rhennish names behind classical Greek glosses, or else that the glosses were systematically preferred for clarity in consideration of a "Blentish" readership. This latter model makes more sense of the fact that Sai Nimwë's name is never glossed, since that figure has no ready-made Greek or Roman equivalent. Complicating this whole picture is Sister Sophia Ruth's testimony that, at least in the community in which she lived, the name of Sai Annya was concealed to prevent profanation (though, in the comment in which she mentioned this, she did not confirm whether "Annya" was the original form), but that, to her knowledge, no other Janyatic name had been concealed.
I know of no Madrian source using the term "Janya". It has been selected for the ECE for two reasons:
1) If it is true that the set of idiosyncratic Rhennish/Aristasian terms was original to the Madrians but almost ubiquitously replaced by classical glosses, it seems reasonable to infer that the elsewhere collocated term Janya may have likewise been original but ubiquitously replaced by a classical gloss.
2) It is possible to interpret Janya and Genia as spelling variations of each other, in which case it is reasonable to prefer the most commonly accepted spelling in the community at present in the absence of compelling reasons to do otherwise (as I have done in preferring "kear" to "khear", for example).
This has been my thinking thus far. It, like all other aspects of the ECE, is always open to revision based on new evidence. I already have a draft second edition which is compiling small changes and refinements as I sift through the additional Madrian material provided to me by David (which is now all uploaded at the OGRA), and I am looking forward to the light which Sister Sophia Ruth's additional issues of TCA may shed whenever she has the opportunity to get them scanned for us. I hope that we will continue to have conversation like this.
-Race
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Post by david on Apr 30, 2017 18:01:08 GMT
Race,
What I learnt from somewhere, I think it was from Madria Olga, was that the Madrians used the Classical names because the Madrian names were more powerful, and they were afraid of the effects of people using them in impure rituals. Madria Olga was angry with the Aristasians for revealing the real names.
May She be with you,
David.
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glenngk
De'anic (Non-Jana Clan)
Posts: 63
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Post by glenngk on May 2, 2017 18:57:32 GMT
Race thanks for the reply. Actually though the evidence which you are presenting here seems to suggest to me that the names of Janya are late. As you state certainly the concept of thame does exist within TCA as an abstract noun meaning order and justice. But it is not used for the specific name of an angel that I can tell. And as you state the Greek name Phoebe is used instead of Candre. Most of the other names of the Janya are not mentioned. Furthermore based on both posts here by both Sophia Ruth on the thread "Regarding the Madrian Genia" are only aware of the Greek Titan names of the Geniae and certain correspondences connected to their names. Neither did the Madrians seem to have the fully developed Angelology of the latter Aristasians and Daughters. All of this reinforces my opinion that the names of the Janya was developed late in latter Aristasian times.
Now I do see that in your comments you seem to explain these facts by arguing that the community perhaps had some sort of esoteric reason to conceal the original Rhennish names of the Janya. Well what I would say first is that most of the current names of the Janyati as does the word Janya itself seem to have come out of the Sanskrit Indo Aryan language which seems to have been even more important to the latter day Aristasians than it even was to the Madrians. I think that a series of Sanskrit hymns of the Goddess found within Our Gospel of Our Mother God rather supports this interest.
The other issue lays in the Rhennish themselves. From my still some what incomplete study of the TCA articles the Rhennish seem to be connected with the Western Amazons of ancient Bronze Age Matriarchal times. According to one of the articles within TCA that time is supposed to have ended about 4000 BCE. In addition to this within TCA several of its authors claim themselves to be Rhennish and to come from Rhennish matriarchal households which curiously seem to escaped uncorrupted thousands of years of patriarchal culture. These uncorrupted households seem to represent all of the ideals of matriarchy. The very Rhennish language itself cpmsidered to be uniquely spiritual as opposed to modern English which is a degenerated materialistic language. This of course is very odd since these articles as are the rest of the articles of TCA are written in the same very modern English.
The fact seems to me to be that academic historian / real historians know nothing of either the Western Amazons or an ancient Rhennish people nor of an ancient Rhennish language. The people who live along the Rhine River historically at time have been referred to as Rhenish. Their language would have be therefore a variant of German or of Dutch. During the late medieval period and during the 17th century Rhenish leagues were created for political and economic reasons but these would have had nothing to do with the Rhennish of TCA. Therefore I think to postulate the idea that the names of the Janya come from a language which probably never existed is very problematic.
Race regarding the issue of the origin of the word Janya. I personally feel that the word Janya was probably developed by the Aristasians from the Hindu Sanskrit language perhaps after 2000. However I am going to have to understand your own theories from within the Clear Recital better, which I have still not fully grasped; prior to discussing this issue in any detail. Again I want to thank you for developing your archive for TCA and other documents. I am enjoying the reading of this material even if I do not agree with all of it
Glenn,
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Post by Madria(priestess)sophiaruth on Mar 25, 2018 2:49:21 GMT
Hello Glenn,
I agree with your statement "I personally feel that the word Janya was probably developed by the Aristasians from the Hindu Sanskrit language perhaps after 2000."
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Post by Admin on Mar 26, 2018 20:21:19 GMT
Sophia Ruth thanks for making contact with me. As you have obviously noticed I have not posted here for a very long time. The fact is that in the last three months I have not been doing any writing at all. I simply have not seen the point of it nor have I been motivated to do it. However I have been increasing my reading substantially and have been reexamining much of what I have studied before. In particular I have been doing a more intense reading of some of the ancient Gnostic scriptures and have been doing some reading in a new book called "The Gnostic New Age" by a long term academic scholar named April Deconick. In spite of the name of her book, which I hate and my distaste for some of her enthusiasms, from what I have read so far I think that her scholarship is brilliant. And many of the contemporary scholars of Gnosticism seem to agree. Any way the area of Gnosticism is increasingly becoming both more familiar and attractive to me in spite of the fact that I would not go so far as to identify myself as Gnostic.
Another area I have been reexamining has been Hinduism with an obvious emphasis on the Shakta tradition. For at least a score of years now I have believed that this tradition has clearly offered the most comprehensive foundation for a Goddess / Dea / Thea based theology. The problem for me has always been that its most authoritative texts such as the Devi Mahatmya and the Sri Devi Bhagavatum also contain many concerns and ideas which are quite alien to me as a person who has grown up within the context of the Western Biblical worldview. In deed one of the aspects of Deanism which attracted me so long lay in the fact that its scriptures seemed to represent a theology which creatively synthesized some of the best insights of both the Eastern Shakti Hindu traditions and those of the western Christian Philosophical traditions in a very creative manner.
However in spite of that attraction, I always did retain for myself the right to interpret De'anism in the light of insights I might find within these earlier traditions. I always felt that the Deanic scriptures often should be interpreted in light of truths previously revealed perhaps within the Hindu or Biblical traditions and not in a manner in which these earlier scriptures are automatically rejected by any supposed infallibility of the De'anic scriptures.
Of course now since I no longer hold to any Deanic identity which is connected to any of the main branches of De'anism, my main focus of study is in these other traditions and not in Deanism at all. Again Ruth thanks for the response.
Glenn
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