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Post by erinsian on Aug 30, 2016 2:30:26 GMT
+Pamela was the first person to introduce me to the name Mari for God the Mother. Ever since then it has been my preferred name for Her. It just fits. One night a few months ago I had a dream where I was standing on a beach at night, looking out to sea. There was a huge, silver moon above the water and the stars were brighter than I can ever hope to sea them, living in the city. I heard the name 'Mari' being whispered in the air, and I opened my lips and formed the name myself. I woke up feeling so blessed, so carefree, so close to Her. It was my most spiritual dream to date and I truly believe it was Her telling me to use that name for Her. I knew Mari-Anna-Ishtar was a three-fold goddess worshipped in parts of the Middle East, I knew the Basques use the name Mari for their Mother Goddess in their living tradition to this day, and I knew the name sounded like 'Mary', one of the most popular avatars of Dea in the modern world. But what I didn't know was that the Feri witchcraft tradition also used this name for Absolute Deity, who they call God Herself (sound familiar?) "She {Mari} is the spirit of the earth, sky, and sea, and is that aspect of the Goddess that even casual practitioners of the modern Craft are most familiar with. She wears a crown of a dozen stars, Her black hair veiling her shining silver body as she stands upon the ocean. Because She is archetypically the height of strength and power, She is associated (however marginally) with the height of summer, but also with the slow decline of autumn, not because Her powers are fading, but because She represents the ultimate harvest, for She carries within her fully-pregnant womb the Divine Child, who shall be born when this cycle is repeated next spring. The full moon is her emblem, continuing the lunar symbolism." - www.feritradition.org/grimoire/deities/mari.htmlWhile they take a more panentheistic, lunar based view than we do, I love knowing there are others out there who feel the power in this name for God Herself. I am still unsure as to what I should call the Daughter aspect of Dea (Anna? Jana? Aurora?) but having this name for the Mother makes me so happy. - Erin
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Post by david on Aug 30, 2016 16:19:11 GMT
Erin, the Madrian name for the Daughter is Inanna, which means Queen of Heaven.
David
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Post by racemochridhe on Aug 31, 2016 4:22:54 GMT
Erin,
It is a beautiful name. The AAV in places uses the very similar Marya, and I have enjoyed the Chapel's observations on the near universality in human languages (that can't agree on anything else) of using the syllable "ma" in terms for "mother". I chant the rosary with the name Marya each Rayadi. (Also, your knowledge of Basque mythology impresses me; I thought I was uniquely strange in that regard. I was not aware, though, of that usage in Feri. That is very interesting.)
As far as the Daughter is concerned, I have taken the expedient on my blog of referring to Her as "Our Lady" (when not referring to Her as "the Daughter". While that may lack something of the personality you are looking for through a name, I settled on it for a couple of reasons.
The first is that I actually liked the way that it avoided the sectarianism of proper naming. The Madrians called Her Inanna, various branches descended from them used variations on that. Sarah Morrigan decided to use an altogether different name in the NCUV to be more ecumenical, but in practice that only added to the confusion. I wanted a way of referring to Her that would be equally acceptable to readers from all branches of the faith.
The second reason was how it hearkens to European customs for referring to Mary. In conjunction with the common naming of the Mother, I felt this subtly reinforced their ultimate identity as Dea, but also made appeal to the lovely tradition of localizing Mary in different contexts. Our teaching does not identify the Daughter with any specific human incarnation (unlike parallel figures in other traditions), but what this metaphysical abstraction may lack in narrative vividness it makes up for in universality. The Daughter became maid, and we are all maid, so we may equally imagine Her as "like us" in whatever other respects make Her accessible to our minds and hearts. Just as Our Lady of Akita is often depicted as Japanese, and Our Lady of Guadalupe is dressed in the raiment of an Aztec princess, Our Lady the Daughter may be figured as any race, any culture, any time period, as She has given Herself equally to all of them. The various proper names used often seem to me to unduly lock Her into a specific cultural context (particularly Inanna, because of the easy confusion with the Mesopotamian deity).
In addition, the aristocratic origins of the title seemed to me to emphasize Her rulership (over the energies of Creation), while its chivalric associations emphasize the way in which She serves as our ideal for our own maid-hood and the extent to which we should and must devote ourselves in Her service.
A title rather than a proper name may not serve the purpose of establishing the kind of intimacy that the name Mari has enabled for you with the Mother, of course, but it is a convention that I have found helpful in my effort to approach the Daughter through understanding and reverence.
-Race
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Post by erinsian on Aug 31, 2016 17:21:01 GMT
I used the name Anna for a long time, as it is short for Inanna without actually having the connotations of being the actual Assyrian goddess Inanna who was a goddess of sex and war, not necessarily things I attribute with Dea (of course, sex is a part of life, but I do not see it as something inherently spiritual as a lot of pagans do, and war is Lady Vikhe's sphere, but not war in the same context as was Inanna's domain). The name Anna also means Grace, I believe, which is of course what the Daughter brings.
I really like the idea of using 'Our Lady'. I do use that sometimes.
Erin
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Post by david on Sept 1, 2016 18:17:51 GMT
Erin, one should disregard all associations with divine names in patriarchal sources, as they are not accurate. The name of a deity contains the invocational power of the deity. As you speak the name, so you invoke. The name Inanna means Queen of Heaven, and this is Her nature. It is what you invoke when you speak the name Inanna.
David.
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Post by david on Sept 2, 2016 16:45:34 GMT
I think I ought to elaborate on the association of the name Inanna with war and sex by the Mesopotamians. The association with war possible came about because the Mesopotamians fought wars against Amazons who, being matriarchal, were devoted to Inanna, wo thereby became associated with war. The association with sex possibly came about because the matriarchal civilisation went through a period of decadence before becoming patriarchal. This may seem a speculative argument, but it seems probable to me, seeing history through the Madrian perspective.
Maybe because I've had a scientific education, I think the best way to resolve theoretical uncertainty is by practical results. Try the chant Hail Inanna. You will find it very calming, and a rhythm comes naturally. When chanted to the accompaniment of drums and cymbals, it is very musical. The results will put aside any fears you have that it may have harmful results, and you will soon want to make it a regular devotion.
David.
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glenngk
De'anic (Non-Jana Clan)
Posts: 63
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Post by glenngk on Sept 2, 2016 19:03:31 GMT
Several issues here, David. I first heard about the theory that the very nature of certain words or names had some sort of inevitably mystical spiritual effect regardless of the background or understanding of the participant from the Hindu tradition. I will note that I am not aware of any such saying from within the De'anic scriptures. But of course I could be wrong. However either way I personally do not believe it. I believe that words or names take on spiritual effect only if the meanings of the words have become important to the participant though that persons personal religious relationship with a particular deity, or if the words being chanted have deep meaning to one. My own experience supports this idea, It does not support the idea that if one mouths a word which is not meaningful to one or is even alien to one that any positive impact will occur.
I of course have no problem with the name of Inanna or with the Goddess Inanna. By all means if she is dear to one, one should then chant her name. That I do believe will bring one closer to Dea. If however Inanna's Name means nothing to one or even has negative connotations for one, then I doubt that it will have positive impact. One can of course experiment on this and as you say determine for oneself what works.
David, as far as your advice goes that one should not pay attention to any of the traditions regarding either the pagan goddesses or anything outside of the Madrian tradition at all it seems, I could not disagree with you more. Yes all of these traditions have some patriarchal distortion as do all of the historic religious traditions. The patriarchal distortions of these traditions do not in any way mean that there is nothing of spiritual value or truth within them. Actually if one in fact believes that only one single tradition, ones own, has complete religious truth and all the others have nothing of value than in fact what one is playing is the same game that the Christian fundamentalists play. I hope that is not really your position. It is not mine.
Now to the issue of history. I have been accused in the recent past and have lost much because of it, that because I really want people to back up with real sources any historical claims they make to back their personal theologies, that I am denying persons the right to worship who they will. This is simply false. All I am doing is asking people to be honest and support historical claims they make with evidence. If one can not do that or objects to supporting what they say with facts then one is simply wrong. I am not talking about you here David.
OK but I am talking about your statements about the Inanna, the Sumerians and the Amazons. I have yet to see any evidence that the Amazons as described in certain ancient Greek writings existed in the way that they say that they did. Other sources do not support the Greek writers in this area. Oh I do not deny that it is possible that some women warriors did exist in the ancient world. Some undoubtedly did. However it is very, very doubtful that full societies existed in which women did the main fighting and in which men were either generally absent or completed subordinated existed. What may be said by certain modern writings including those of the Madrians does not make it so. Neither I believe do any ancient sources exist which back up any idea that the Sumerians regularly fought Amazons. The Greeks were not even aware of either the Sumerians or of the goddess Inanna. However the Sumerians as did all ancient peoples fought wars and war goddesses existed within many ancient societies. Inanna and then in her form of Ishtar was worshipped as a goddess of war for thousands of years.
As an aside it also should be noted that Innana was a goddess who had a priesthood which to a significant degree was made up of a transgender clergy. She had female priests who dressed as males and took on male roles, and male priests who dressed as women and took on female role. This fact is very well known historically. That might be also of positive interest for those De'anists who are activists in LGBT rights issues. I can of course back this up with historical sources if that is requested.
Glenn
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Post by david on Sept 4, 2016 18:50:16 GMT
Glenn, Firstly, about names. Your view of the world is either materialist or spiritual. You cannot believe that the world is spiritual, but the things of the world are not of a spiritual nature. That is a contradiction. The Madrian justification for the chant Hail Inanna is that the name Inanna is identical with Inanna Herself. The origin of any name is that it is a manifestation of the thing as a spiritual archetype.
I believe that Maddrianism is the truth, but I am not a sadistic fanatic. I won't say I'm as sane as the next man, because I don't know who the next man is, and I don't want to commit myself. People believe that the Spanish Inquisition was the result of the most gentle of all spiritual influences, and they therefore have to explain its origin by the fact that anyone who actually believes is religion to be an absolute truth, whatever that religi0n is, will become a crazed fanatic. If yo9u read about the Spanish Inquisition, you will find there was something crazy about them. People believe that it could not have come from Christianity, because Christianity is a teaching of love and meekness. They believe this because, at school, they were taught a few safe, selected passages from the Gospels, and the rest was about the Old Testament. If you read the whole of the Gospels, you are in for a surprise, such as God's angles hurl sinners into Hell. Christians are afraid of God. It says also Jesus cursed a fig tree because it did not have any figs for him, and the fig tree withered up and died. I believe Madrianism to be the absolute truth, but I have found no teachings that make me afraid of the Dea, and have read nothing about cursing.
There are enough stories in Greek and Roman sources to persuade me that there must be something in them. There are stories of women of prowess in other traditions, such as Scathach teaching Cuchulin. These are only individuals, but to do this, they must have had the practice of contemplative action that the Madrians teach. Training on merely material level cannot make women equal to trained men, and I speak from experience in judo. Madrians are the only people I know of who teach contemplative action. Archaeologists have found graves of women with weapons in them. They admit that, until, they assumed that any grave with weapons was the grave of a man, and they are now being more careful about this.
Surely you can see that female priests dressing as men, and male priests dressing as women, come from a transitional stage between matriarch and patriarchy? I can't see any other reason for this. It proves that the storied of Greek heroes dressing as women originated from the fact that they were women. That includes the story of Herakles dressing as Queen Omphale, and Queen Omphale dressing as Herakles. They must have been Amazons.
David.
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glenngk
De'anic (Non-Jana Clan)
Posts: 63
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Post by glenngk on Sept 5, 2016 18:05:56 GMT
David, much of what you have written here is quite interesting. I will probably be able to comment regarding parts of it in a few days
Glenn
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glenngk
De'anic (Non-Jana Clan)
Posts: 63
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Post by glenngk on Sept 10, 2016 11:54:58 GMT
First in response to your post I am leaving the issue of names to the last. I will deal with the less complex more historical issues first. David I am perfectly aware that you hold Madrianism to be the absolute truth containing, I assume, no error at all. Those who believe that their own faith represents absolute truth are often very aggressive those of other beliefs and even at times violent toward those who have faiths which they believe are false. However not always. My own Mother was a fundamentalist Christian through out her entire life and she was scarcely a violent person. The various Anabaptist sects such as the Mennonites, the Amish and Hutterites have always been clearly fundamentalist. They have always been pacifist sects. They in general are not crazed or violent. So no David, I have never assumed that you are a crazed fanatic. There have been many examples of fundamentalists from all faiths who are often gentile and loving people.
Now I am not sure exactly how the issue of the Spanish Inquisition fits into the discussion but you are right on one thing. Christianity as an organized religion has never been a religion focused purely on love and meekness. The problem is that there has always been a lot of other stuff within Christianity that not only is not about love and humility, but is potentially about the opposite of these virtues. The Spanish Conquistadors and the Inquisition did not perform their actions out of a heart of love.
Women warriors? David I am aware that both Celtic and Germanic legends have tales of women warriors. However within these societies such warriors were not the norm. I am aware also that ancient grave sites in Central Asia and the North Shore of the Black Sea contain graves of women who were buried with armor and military weapons. And certainly several Greek writers wrote about the Amazons, whose are set in the distant legendary past. I am not aware of any stories from the Sumerian tradition or ancient Egyptian traditions of woman warriors. The point is David I am willing to admit the existence of women warriors because it is entirely possible and some archaeological finds seem to confirm this. I do not however believe that it is possible that whole societies existed in the ancient world in which the warriors were women and men were either completely absent or served only as house dads. Such societies simply would have been extremely inefficient and would ultimately been destroyed quickly. I choose not to go into the reasons for this because I think that the reasons are obvious. But to state the obvious such societies would have had an extremely inefficient division of human labor.
Contemplative action? Many of the martial arts traditions from out of Asia teach just this. I am not aware that the Madrians taught any such techniques.
Transgender men and women? David my remarks regarding this were an aside to Erin. What I wrote was in no way an attempt to belittle Inanna. On the contrary it was a suggestion that she was a goddess who is very logically the Goddess of transgender persons. Since the De'anic and I assume the Madrian faiths affirm transgender persons I would think that would be a point in her favor.
Now to Names. At my birth I was named Glenn. Those who know me who know something of my character, personality, the way I function in the world associate my personhood with my name Glenn. However the fact is I could have been named just as easily Martin, Rufus or any other name for that matter. If I would have been named Martin, for example, persons who know me would know me as Martin. But I would be the same person. The fact is in this world there can be many names which all apply to the same god, goddess or spiritual being which develop from out of the many differing linguistic cultures. Since no doubt tens of thousands of human languages have existed historically this is no doubt the case. Thus the Artemis of the Greeks is Diana for the Romans. The Elohim of the Jews is the God of the English and the Allah of the Arabs. So David I have a hard time understanding why the situation of Dea is any different. Are you saying that Inanna is the only correct name for her? To call her Marya, Mari, or Isis is wrong? Do you really believe that there is only one correct name for Dea which was revealed directly from heaven and that all others are merely human made? Well if you do, I disagree.
A final point. David, I do not agree with you that the world is either spiritual or materialist. I believe that both aspects exist. Yes I believe that the material world to a great degree reflects the realities of a spiritual world. But I also believe that to a great degree the material world is one which does not reflect the will of Dea and that much which occurs within it is in rebellion to Dea's will. Is the civil war in Syria a reflection of Dea's will? I do not think so. I also think that Dea has given a strong amount of freedom to physical creation and therefore much happens that seems in our eyes at least be either open to chance or to the vagaries of life.
Neither do I believe that there is any one religious tradition which represents absolute truth. De'anism is the tradition which represents the highest degree of truth for me. It is also the religion in which I feel the most comfortable thealogically. It may not necessarily be what is best for others. Neither do I believe that it is error free or that it does not have its problems. Some religions do deal with certain aspects of life better than does De'anism as it has been traditionally understood. This is what I believe.
Glenn
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Post by david on Sept 11, 2016 18:06:49 GMT
Glenn, You say you don't understand how the Spanish Inquisition fits into the discussion. The point is that's there's something in Christianity which unbalances the mind.
The reason why women warriors were not the norm in patriarchal societies is because all stories dating from matriarchal times have passed through patriarchal editing. The existence of such women, even as isolated individuals, proves there is some principle which makes women at least as strong as men. This principle cannot have originated in a patriarchal culture, and points to the previous existence of a matriarchal one, which could not have survived unless this principle was widely applied.
What I meant by contemplative action is the practice of making all things and actions as reflections of Divine Ideas. I am not aware of any Oriental use of this practice. What they practice is either acting without thought, which I would not call contemplative, or acting from ki, which works by acting from a point below the navel. These practices do not make women equal to men. You say that you are not aware that the Madrians taught such a method. I was ready to send you copies of articles from The Coming Age which explain aspects of this method, but you said you did not want them.
I don't see how Inanna can be regarded as a transgender Goddess. The nearest thing to it is that authority in Madrianism is often of a dual nature, being a partnership between the more spiritual and the more practical, both of which are female, and are united by love. There's no justificatio9n for transgender men. It's important to bear in mind that the Madrians believed in chaste love. We are supposed to love all our relatives of both sex, and our pets, but not to have carnal relations with them.
Yes, there are many names for the Dea, but the many names can still be aspects of the Dea, because She is a many facetted being. The name you were given at birth is still a reflection of some kind of spiritual energy, even if it is not accurately suited to your nature. This is why Madrian initiates are given new names.
You can point to things in the world which don't seem to be spiritual, but the explanation is in The Three Loves "The world is as a crazed and spotted mirror." Have you ever seen yourself in a distorting mirror? What you see does not look like you, but you are the origin of it. It is not created by the mirror. The evils of the world are reflections of archetypal states, but they are distorted.
If you had read all the copies of The Coming Age, and all the Literary Circle papers I have read, you would find it harder to believe that Madrianism is not the primordial teaching, of which all other teachings are degenerations.
David.
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Post by racemochridhe on Sept 11, 2016 19:16:03 GMT
David,
I have greatly cherished the issues of The Coming Age which you were kind enough to scan for us in the old Yahoo group. I, for one, would be very glad to see the articles you mention on contemplative action, as well as any others or anything from the Literary Circle that you feel at liberty to share.
-Race
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Post by david on Sept 12, 2016 16:00:31 GMT
Race,
I sent all the articles that relate to contemplative action. The method is to be aware of the symbolic meaning of your actions, for which you need knowledge of symbolism. The articles I scanned were about symbolism.
David.
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Post by erinsian on Sept 12, 2016 19:50:13 GMT
I don't see how Inanna can be regarded as a transgender Goddess. The nearest thing to it is that authority in Madrianism is often of a dual nature, being a partnership between the more spiritual and the more practical, both of which are female, and are united by love. There's no justificatio9n for transgender men. It's important to bear in mind that the Madrians believed in chaste love. We are supposed to love all our relatives of both sex, and our pets, but not to have carnal relations with them. David, as a lesbian and a person with many transgender friends I find this paragraph troubling. The 'justification' for transgender men is that the gender they were assigned at birth does not match the one that they are. I know for a Madrian this may seem impractical as you believe all souls are feminine in nature and transitioning to male would be a 'step backward', but this is just the way things are. As for the chaste love, I was under the impression that the Madrians did not have to be chaste. I'm sure I've read that they performed heterosexual and lesbian weddings. Sex usually (but not always) happens in marriages.
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Post by david on Sept 14, 2016 16:21:54 GMT
Erinsian,
I have an awkward problem in answering this post. When looking for the Madrian community, I gave away a lot of copies of The Coming Age to newspapers in an attempt to create publicity. That means I can't say definitely what the Madrian position on transgender marriages is. I vaguely remember something about lesbianism, but I can't remember precisely what. That means I can't say definitely that they did or did not perform lesbian marriages. I'm sorry for this lack of information.
Regarding chaste love, what I meant by this was love outside marriage.
David.
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