glenngk
De'anic (Non-Jana Clan)
Posts: 63
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Post by glenngk on Jan 3, 2017 22:52:49 GMT
While the Janite form of Deanism is still dominant and is growing, it seems to me that I am also seeing a resurgence in what Race calls the Feminine Essentialist wing of the faith. Another name by which this form of Deanism might be called could be Traditionalist De'anism which of course would include the Feminine Essentialist aspect. To my way of thinking David's Madrianism is a form of that broader category. At least four members of this forum seem to roughly hold to this thealogy.
I am not a Traditionalist or a Feminine Essentialist. I am too tied to both the Biblical tradition which sees the material world as fundamentally real and significant in itself. It is not to be seen as only an inferior materialized reflection of principle. I'll take a real chair any day in which I can rest my body over some supposed divine idea of a chair. I also believe in the Biblical principle of the coming of the Dominion / Kingdom of God as expressed by the Biblical prophets and Jesus.
Another very important area in which I differ is that I do not hold the Protestant Reformation, the Renaissance, the Enlightenment and the development of modern science as being all disasters for humanity or as necessarily rebellions against the authority of God. I furthermore do not hold the liberal democracies in the total contempt that Rene Guenon and his Madrian successors did. Medieval monarchies were often quite brutal and incompetent affairs. After all if not for these transformations of human societies and thought I doubt that a Deanic / Filianic movement would even exist. The clerics and priests would have insured that no Goddess Revival or even a Twentieth Century Traditionalist movement would ever have existed. Neither of course would the internet exist and many other of the products of modern science.
None of this means that I have any contempt for Traditionalism. I am currently rereading Rene Guenon's The Crisis of the Modern World with much more attention to detail than in my first rather sketchy reading . It is fascinating and I agree with much, but certainly not all of it. Thus it is doubtful that I will ever be what is called a Traditionalist. That being the case I still would like to be able to read and interpret the Madrian's own interpretations of Traditionalist thinking for myself. I am sure that David's first hand knowledge of Madrian thought and his interpretations of it are very accurate. However I also believe that texts whether religious, philosophic, or other often can unfold several potential interpretations or meanings many of which the authors themselves may not have had in mind. I do suspect that this idea may be some sort of post modern heresy but I hold it. If I did not then the world would become a much more narrower and impoverished place for me.
David of course did attempt to send copies of certain aspects of "The Coming Age" and other pertinent documents to members such as myself over the internet. Unfortunately what he sent did not work within my systems. Neither is it feasible for David to send individual copies of documents via the regular mail to those who want them. So I have an idea. What if it is possible for the various editions of The Coming Age and other materials to be collected and edited within a book form via a publisher such as Lulu? Then of course persons could order it and pay what ever the price demanded for it by Lulu. In that way much of the heritage of Madrianism will be saved and an aspect of the historical record preserved. What about this as an idea?
Note. This post obviously has two parts. The first of course deals with some of my own ideas to which members can respond if they want. However the heart of the message is the proposal. It would be a shame if all of the material that David has and perhaps Sophia Ruth has at some point in time simply disappears.
Glenn
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Post by erinsian on Jan 3, 2017 23:39:19 GMT
I think this sounds like a wonderful idea. While I'm not a traditionalist or an 'Orthodox'/Feminine Essentialist Deanist I do find certain aspects of it interesting, particularly things from the Madrian era such as The Coming Age.
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Post by racemochridhe on Jan 4, 2017 12:14:46 GMT
Glenn,
I'm so glad you have raised this subject again. I am extremely concerned about the preservation of both Madrian and pre-Bridgehead Aristasian materials, many of which exist only on unstable online mirror sites or as isolated documents in private collections. Much is in danger of disappearing altogether, and much more is simply in danger of passing from the community's collective memory for lack of accessibility.
To confine ourselves for starters to The Coming Age, David and I discussed this a couple of years ago. His core concern at the time was avoiding running afoul of copyright laws. At the time, I thought fair use provisions might cover such compilation for research, but have since learned that they don't under British Law. I have recently been revisiting this issue in an effort to get copies imaged for me of Madrian documents held in the British Library's collection, and the key point seems to be that we could file for what is called an "orphan copyright license" which would allow us to reproduce Madrian works. We just have to be able to prove that we have made "all reasonable effort" to locate the copyright holder and been unable to do so. This leads to some questions, which I'm hoping David Kay and/or Georgia Cobb (among others) can help answer:
Lux Madriana claimed copyrights to itself as an organization. Did the organization have a legal existence, as through incoporation, charity registration, etc?
If so, who was formally head of the organization at the time of its dissolution? My understanding is that Madria Olga Lotar was the last person to claim formal headship of a Madrian organization. Is this accurate? I believe her husband is still alive, but I haven't yet succeeded in finding contact info. Presumably, Georgia Cobb would have this. If she was legally head of anything at the time of her death, he may be the copyright holder. If not, he might have an idea who to talk to.
If Lux Madriana was not legally registered as an organization, authors hold all the rights. Is there even a way to determine who they were?
Remember, the good news is that none of these lines of questioning needs to end in finding a copyright holder. They just need to end in us being able to show that we tried them and they did not result in finding a copyright holder.
Once we have a license, we can set about the real work. I have been dreaming for a couple of years now of brining everything together in an authoritative collection of "Matrisric Writings" (paralleling the Christian discipline of Patristics). Déanists of the future may or may not take any of it as gospel, but it would still be an unfathomably precious resource to bequeath to them (all thoroughly indexed and cross-referenced, of course).
-Race
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Post by david on Jan 4, 2017 18:07:20 GMT
As I understand teh copyright law, copyright exists with the author unless she has signed away her right. That means teh copyright for a copy of The Coming Age rests with each individual contributor, and they have to be contacted individually. I have alread violated copyright by putting articles on the Internet, but I trusted the indulgence of teh authors. I think that to publish an entire magazine is going too far. As understand your frustration, but I have a consoolation solution. I have self published a number of articles derived from Madrian teachings in a book Acxting From Spiritual Rality, and it is available from www.rosedogbookstore.com May She be with you, David.
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glenngk
De'anic (Non-Jana Clan)
Posts: 63
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Post by glenngk on Jan 5, 2017 14:33:39 GMT
Race, in regards to some of your questions, in regards to the question of whether the Lux Madriana had a legal existence, my guess is that they did not though I obviously can not prove this. However, would not the magazine have had a legal existence on its own part? However since we can assume that it went out of business I think that what we need to do is contact the authors of the articles as both you and David have suggested.
Based on some of the contacts that Pamela Lanides has made last year, I believe that the primary Madrian writers are in fact the same persons who currently are a part of the leadership core of the Aristasians / Daughters of Shining Harmony. All of the logic of the situation is that persons such as Sister Angela did not simply go away and disappear but instead transformed their identities and allegiances from the Madrian organization and then help create and lead the Aristasian community now the Daughters. Therefore I think that the proper course then to take would be to communicate with the Daughter, requesting permission to collect and edit articles from the The Coming Age and other material into a published work. They could of course be asked to be a part of the project.
Unfortunately since the Aristasian leadership core has never been willing to admit that they and the Madrians have been one and the same, and in the past have not been willing to work with outsiders, it is probable that they will not respond to any such request. On the other hand if they do admit to their role in the creation of the magazine articles and deny the right of any other party to edit the materials then we will know a lot more about the history of the group. I suspect however that they will not want to do that.
To proceed if the group involved in this project can show that it has made a bona fide effort to get permission from the authors of the magazine articles, whom I assume are among the leadership core of the Daughters; then perhaps then the orphan copyright that you mentioned can be obtained.
Let me ask a few questions. Does anyone know what the potential penalties for copyright law violation really are. Would the penalties be the same for the publication of an obscure group of writings, for which no one will be making a profit be the same as for a major copyright violation in which tens of thousand of dollars might be involved. Can David really be penalized for breaking copyright violations for sharing articles that he bought and paid for on the internet which he fears. People are always sharing articles and other materials over the internet.
I have one other thought to add. Perhaps The Coming Age and other Madrian articles could simply be edited and put into a book form by a printing service without being legally published at all. Copies then could be made only for use by members of the Deanic community but not for the general public. To obtain copies members would simply have to cover their own share of the printing costs and other costs incurred. This of course would be a less attractive option but I do not see how it would be illegal.
A note. I just remembered your questions regarding Madria Olga. If I recall properly my understanding is that she was never a member of the Madrians led by Jennifer / Sister Angela. At least that is my understanding.
Glenn
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kevin
New Member
Posts: 1
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Post by kevin on Jan 5, 2017 14:55:19 GMT
Glenn, I would like to respond to something in your original post. Like you, I dislike the pessimism of the Traditionalists. The Bible encourages us to think of history as developing in a positive direction, toward a manifestation of heaven on earth. Both Judaism and mainline Christianity have that expectation about history, and indeed, it appears to be developing in that way (read Pinker's Better Angels of Our Nature), toward less violence and more human rights. At the same time, I appreciate what the Feminine Universe says about the historical cycle, because ancient literature seems more sophisticated and spiritual than the art that followed it. What compares to The Odyssey? Genesis? So, I'm conflicted (as I think you are).
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Post by david on Jan 6, 2017 18:26:58 GMT
Glenn, A private distribution seems to have possibilities, and, since I'm the only one who has copies of The Coming Age, it will be up to me to arrange it, but I don't have a complete set. When the community disappeared, I tried to make publicity through the press by giveng them some copies, and I only have seven left.
I will have to wait until after Nativity, when I have more time, before I go about making enquiries with printers.
May She be with you,
David.
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Post by david on Jan 6, 2017 18:31:59 GMT
Kevin, the reason why history seems to be contradictory concerning decline, is that the decline takes place in cycles, and we're coming to an end of a cycle, and that is why there are positive influences.
The Madrian teaching is that the delcine takes place gradually, and is renewed instantly, so that we go stright from the bottom of the old cylce to the peak of the new. I have come to doubt this, because I don't see it taking place in nature. The moon waxes as gradually as it wanes, and the progression from winter to summer is as gradual as the decline from summer to winter.
May Seh be with you,
DAvid.
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Post by Madria(priestess)sophiaruth on Jan 6, 2017 20:37:26 GMT
Hello David, You are NOT the only one to have copies of The Coming Age Magazine. I have an incomplete set Madria Olga Lotar's Collection was gifted to ArchMatrona Georgia who has passed it to the Janite Order of Priestesses. I have sent emails requesting details. I am missing: The Coming Age Issue 3, including: Apocalypse: The End of The World or the Age of the Goddess? Spirituality: Going All the Way The Femaleness of God Symbolism: The Rose and the Ear of Corn Adventuring Inwards The Songs of the Wood Maiden Issue 5, contained: Genia, the Children of Heaven The Meaning of Nativity The Spiritual Forces Behind The Seasons A Legend of The Three Crowns Symbolism: The Star and the Sacred Grove The Meaning of Penance Issue 10, contained: The Power of Imagination The Darkest Hour (on the ending of the age) Easter; Who Is Our Lady? Tales From Eternity Book Reviews Story; The Valley of The Well Symbolism: The Heart and Moon-Axe Issue 14, contained: Flowers in the Light if Sacred Science (David Kay has made this article public) Scenes From a Madrian Childhood Inanna: Valiant and Victorious Childhood, Youth and Maturity Language and "Progress" Anarchy and Order? Story: The Water of Life Symbolism: The Chalice and The Grail The New Year My collection goes up to Issue 20. I am taking high quality photos of the pages. I have photo manipulation software which helps the clarity. The Moira page photos can be downloaded as graphics from mydevotionstodea.files.wordpress.com/2016/12/the-wheel-of-moiratca-issue-11-121after-lourdes-5081-page-12.jpg?w=1250&h=&crop=1and mydevotionstodea.files.wordpress.com/2016/12/the-wheel-of-moiratca-issue-11-121after-lourdes-5081-page-3.jpg?w=875&h=&crop=1In my blog post: mydevotionstodea.wordpress.com/2017/01/04/sun-symbol-still-point-at-the-centre-of-manifestation/I have included a section: From the original article: The Three Eternal Truths The Coming Age, number 15, Rosea, 5082 Iron Age/1980 As I explained to ArchMadria Pamela: Part of my Sun Symbol article was extracts of the Madrian thealogy from an article. This is something that I am trying to do. Stripping away the matriarchal, the anti modernist movement of the 1970's, the fictional stories about the Amazons. Just revealing the thealogy, in the hope that it contains a buried treasure. May Dea bless you, Sorella (Sister) Sophia Ruth
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Post by racemochridhe on Jan 7, 2017 6:31:42 GMT
A couple of points:
Thank you, Sister Ruth, for making your holdings known. The British Library is also holding copies of The Coming Age, though I don't know how complete their set is. Copies are also being held at the Feminist Archive South based at the University of Bristol (again I don't know which issues). The trouble is, I need copyright clearance to get these libraries to image materials from the collection for me, which is how I started on this whole orphan copyright permissions question in the first place. If anyone is near those locations and could go look at them in person to take some pictures, that would be a different story...
Assuming we could get the material together without such a permission, it could simply be bundled and distributed illicitly as Glenn describes. Doing so, even for our own internal use, would be a copyright violation, but I very much doubt anyone would actually press the point. It may be noted in this connection that I cannot find a reasonable basis for Sarah Morrigan to have assumed the right (as she did) to publish her version of the Scriptures under a Creative Commons License, since she was certainly not a copyright holder and the editions she appears to have been working from were under copyright, but no one has gone after her yet. I will happily volunteer to transcribe the articles from scans and format the collection, either as a master from which a printer could work or simply as a PDF for our own electronic distribution (which avoids a little more of the appearance of evil from a copyright violation point of view, since it avoids money changing hands in exchange for copies, even if that money is only to cover printing costs). I have a fair bit of professional experience as an editor and have wanted to do this for The Coming Age for a long time, but I only want to proceed if those holding the articles feel comfortable with my doing so.
Based on the scans I have seen, the issues as a whole were claimed copyright Lux Madriana, without any disclaimer reserving rights to authors. The copyright would therefore, per standard procedure for periodicals, belong to the periodical. If Lux Madriana as an organization had any legal standing, the organization owned the copyrights, which presumably passed to its head when the organization went defunct.
With regard to David's point about the transition between cycles of ages, I read an interesting discussion group post once by Miss Annya Miralene, in which she denounced the modernist tendency to identify the height of things with their point of greatest worldly expansion (per Aristotle). Only through modern eyes, she said, would it seem that the Golden Age of Islamic civilization was the great caliphate at Baghdad in the high middle ages; from a spiritual point of view, the pinnacle of Muslim civilization was the lifetime of the Prophet himself, even when the community was hardest pressed and in exile in Medina. It seems to me as a parallel that, from a spiritual point of view, the principle of life that becomes most apparent at the height of the summer is, in fact, in greatest force at the beginning of the spring. The flourishing of the summer that makes that force visible to us is, in many ways, the testament that much of it has already been spent, even as the Baghdad caliphate made plain both the fruits of Muhammad's teaching and also the fact of that teaching's slow decay. This, to me, seems to make sense of the teaching that ages of iron give way immediately to ages of gold, without a "waxing" corresponding to the "waning".
Glenn, you wrote "Jennifer / Sister Angela". May I ask where you found the name Jennifer in this connection?
Dea bless you all,
Race
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Post by david on Jan 7, 2017 18:35:08 GMT
Sister Ruth,
You have a more complete collection than I have. I have issues 10,14,15,16,17,18, and 20.
May She be with you,
David.
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Post by Madria(priestess)sophiaruth on Jan 7, 2017 20:16:00 GMT
Hello Race, The Coming Age being held at the Feminist Archive South based at the University of Bristol is new and important information. Thank you. Hello David, Excellent, by the grace of Dea, your issues 10 and 14 mean that we are only missing issues 3 and 5. With respect, your copies on the yahoo group are very difficult to read. Perhaps photos can be taken at a higher resolution of all the publication. This is a task that we as a community can all work towards assisting you with. Hello All, We can focus on between us obtaining copies of issues 3 and 5 from the 2 libraries Feminist Archive South based at the University of Bristol and the British Library by dividing the application and cost between us. The Madria Olga Lotar material has typed articles not complete magazines. Here is the information I have about obtaining from the British Library: Customer-Services@bl.uk British Library: Title: The Coming age : a Madrian review of religion, life and culture. Publication Details: Oxford : Lux Madriana and the Order of the Daughters of Artemis, [197-]-1981] Language: English Description: No.1-no.20. Identifier: System number 011288570 Notes: Imprint varies. Holdings Notes: General Reference Collection P.521/3368 Holdings: no. 3-no. 20 Shelfmark(s): General Reference Collection P.521/3368 UIN: BLL01011288570 The Coming age presents the book of Rhiannë : the definitive introduction to matriarchy and the feminine tradition. Contributor: Lux Madriana. Subjects: Femininity (Psychology) ; Feminine principle ; Dewey: 155.3/33 Publication Details: Burtonport An Drochead Beo, Burtonport, County Donegal, Eire : Lux Madriana, [1982] Language: English Identifier: ISBN £1.00 (pbk); BNB GB8311032; System number 011177780 Notes: Cover title.Text on inside covers. Physical Description: 31p. : ill. ; 21cm. Shelfmark(s): General Reference Collection X.529/52109 Holdings: Shelfmark(s): X.529/52109 The item may also be available through our Images Online service, please see the link below: imagesonline.bl.uk/ Please note, the price for a standard or premium resolution image on CD-ROM is per shot per page, not per CD-ROM. You can fill in an online order form for the item required. This can be found on our website at: forms.bl.uk/imaging/index.aspx The standard service is 10 – 20 working days subject to preservation checks. We also have an express service with a 5 - 10 working day turnaround again subject to preservation checks. The charge for express is an additional £19.00 per item plus VAT. If you require Express then please type 'Express' in the additional information part of the order. If you intend to use a British Library image for any purpose except non-commercial research, you will need to contact our Permissions Department, as there may be an additional permissions charge: Tel: 00 44 (0)20 7412 7755 Fax: 00 44 (0)20 7412 7771 Email: permissions@bl.uk If the item is still in copyright, then you would need to sign a copyright declaration form which will be sent to you when you place your order. May Dea bless you. Blessed is She. Sorella (Sister) Sophia Ruth
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Post by Madria(priestess)sophiaruth on Jan 7, 2017 20:18:09 GMT
The Coming age presents the book of Rhiannë : the definitive introduction to matriarchy and the feminine tradition. Which none of us have is also located here: copac.jisc.ac.uk/browse?key=2B433F3741330427332F0445492F4B2F414D4B044D352F042943433B0443310449352741412F&offset=0 part of the Copac national, academic & specialist library catalogue. Search result: Title The coming age presents the book of Rhánnë. Published Burtonport, Co. Donegal : Lux Madriana [1986?] Held At: Trinity College Dublin Printed Title The coming age presents the book of Rhíannë. Published Burtonport, Co.Donegal, Eire : Lux Madriana [1982] Held At: Exeter University Printed Title The Coming age presents the book of Rhiannë : the definitive introduction to matriarchy and the feminine tradition. Published Burtonport (An Drochead Beo, Burtonport, County Donegal, Eire) : Lux Madriana [1982] Held At: British Library Cambridge University Oxford University May Dea bless you. Blessed is She. Sorella (Sister) Sophia Ruth
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Post by racemochridhe on Jan 8, 2017 13:33:59 GMT
And thus we come back around to where we started, as I have been in communication with the British Library for the last four months trying to wheedle copies of TCA and other Madrian materials out of them, which they won't provide without either a permission from the copyright holder or an orphan copyright license.
I will continue to work on this. If everyone who has made an effort to track down the Madrians could send me a brief write-up of what leads they had, how they pursued them, and what their results were, I can compile that into a master file that should serve as proof of good faith effort for an orphan license, which will allow us to access a wealth of material (there is mich more than just TCA and the Book of Rhiannë) and to curate and publish it for public consumption however we see fit.
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Post by david on Jan 8, 2017 18:17:28 GMT
Sister Ruth,
You can enlarge the copies yourself. Open Wordpad, then open Pictures. Select the file you want and open it, then enlarge it with the Zoom function.
May She be with you,
David.
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